70: Creating White Space in the Workplace: Building Your Team’s Productivity with Juliet Funt

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Creating white space in the workplace building your teams productivity with Juliet Funt on the TalentGrow Show

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As a leader, you should always be looking for ways to boost the productivity of your team. On this episode of the TalentGrow Show, Halelly Azulay interviews consultant and speaker Juliet Funt about productivity-enhancing ideas and techniques, especially the concept of “white space.” Did you know that the financial costs of not having white space are about a million dollars of annual waste per 50 people in a team? That’s right, which means you should be thinking about finding ways to create white space in your workplace today! Listen now to learn some great practices for creating and using white space, get advice for overcoming what Juliet calls the “thieves of productivity,” and actionable steps that you can take today to boost the productivity of your team!

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WHAT YOU’LL LEARN:

  • Juliet explains the concept of “white space” (4:30)
  • Why all businesses suffer when talented people don’t have “thinking” on their daily to-do list (5:22)
  • The financial cost of not having white space. (It can be about a million dollars of annual waste per 50 people in a team) (7:24)
  • Juliet talks about what she calls the “thieves of productivity” (hint: they’re a lot like the flower Morning Glory) (8:12)
  • Juliet shares her struggle with her own dominant productivity thief: excellence (10:51)
  • Differentiating when you use your productivity thief for good or for bad (12:17)
  • Juliet offers four questions you can ask yourself to map your productivity thieves (13:19)
  • Juliet discusses the productivity dynamics that occur within a team. (The team-leader’s productivity thief usually dominates the culture of the team) (15:07)
  • Three practices that can help you create more white space for you and your team (16:40)
  • An action you can take that increases key outcomes by 154%, according to research done at the Global Leadership Summit (19:05)
  • Why you need something tangible to get started creating more white space (21:08)
  • Halelly and Juliet summarize the three practices (22:15)
  • Juliet shares some different techniques for creating and using white space (23:15)
  • Where the name “white space” came from! (24:33)
  • Juliet defines the goal of white space as creating a “strategic pause” between activities (25:42)
  • What’s on Juliet’s horizon? (26:36)
  • Juliet’s actionable tip for leaders (27:45) 

RESOURCES:

ABOUT JULIET FUNT:

Juliet Funt is the CEO of WhiteSpace at Work, a training and consulting firm that helps organizations, their leaders and employees flip the norms of business in order to reclaim their creativity, productivity and engagement. Her mission is to unearth the potential of companies by unburdening their talent, and calls herself a “warrior against reactive business.” With thought-provoking content and immediately actionable tools, she has become a nationally recognized expert in coping with the Age of Overload in which we all live and work.

Transcript

Episode 70 Juliet Funt

Announcer: Welcome to the TalentGrow Show, where you can get actionable results-oriented insight and advice on how to take your leadership, communication and people skills to the next level and become the kind of leader people want to follow. And now, your host and leadership development strategist, Halelly Azulay.

Halelly: Welcome back TalentGrowers, to another episode of the TalentGrow Show. Lately it seems that whenever I ask anybody how they’re doing, the answer is usually, “Busy,” or even, “Crazy busy.” Right? Well, I’m actually guilty of that answer too. I’m Halelly Azulay, your leadership development strategist here at TalentGrow and since this episode is being released at the beginning of a new year, I thought that it would be great to help us all try to get better control of this craziness and busyness and kick off a wonderfully productive and fulfilling year. I’ve got the perfect guest for us this week. She’s amazingly insightful, an expert on productivity. Her name is Juliet Funt. She’s wonderful and witty. I saw her as a speaker and she shares so many great productivity-enhancing ideas and techniques around a concept she calls white space and overcoming what she calls the thieves of productivity. This is a super-actionable episode, with ideas for actions that you can take today to boost not just your own productivity, but also the productivity of your team. Don’t forget to tell me your reactions afterwards, but in the meantime, here we go. Episode 70.

Welcome back TalentGrowers. This is Halelly Azulay, and I am here with Juliet Funt. She is a recognized consultant and speaker and founder of White Space at Work. Her mission, check this out – to unearth the potential of companies by unburdening their talent. She calls herself a warrior against reactive busyness, and I was able to see her do a keynote at a conference for one of my professional organizations, and let me tell you, I was blown away! Not only am I speaker myself, and I am exposed to many speakers because I attend and speak at a lot of conferences, but I also teach public speaking skills and so it’s not that easy to make me speechless, but this woman did! You really did, I mean, you blew it out of the water, Juliet. So I’m really excited to have you here. I think that what you have to share is super important to every person, and especially to leaders. So welcome to the TalentGrow Show.

Juliet: Thank you so much. It’s going to be so fun and it was a great event where I met you.

Halelly: Yes, it was, and I look forward to seeing you again there next year. So, Juliet, before we get into the nitty-gritty of White Space and everything about how to improve productivity in the workplace, I want you to tell us a very brief description of your professional journey. We always start that way. Where did you start and how did you get to where you are today?

Juliet: Sure. That’s always fun to talk about. In college I was an actress, and I knew that I liked to be in front of people and working with them, but I grew quickly tired of pretending to be another person. So I went back to school and I took some OD classes and I fell in love with training and teaching and sort of still being with people and up in front of them, but really helping them change the way that they lived or worked or thought or something like that. Then those classes led into speaking and consulting and training, and I’ve been doing that for 18 years. 13 of them have been exclusively on this topic called white space, which sort of came into my life 13 years ago, partially, honestly, by market demand and partially by my own curiosities. Immediately it took over everything else that we were doing. It’s really fun that I continue to find interesting elements of this topic, and I think I might forever, because it’s such untapped territory in our busy, busy world. The idea of bringing thoughtfulness back to work, the idea of letting go of some of the low-value junk, I’m certainly not the first person or company to think of that. But there is just a teeny, tiny group, a tiny army of these warriors trying to change the way that people work and we’re just on the very, very early cusp of that kind of transformation.

Halelly: And the world needs this kind of change. So before we get any further into it, we’re speaking about white space as if everyone understands exactly what we mean. But let’s unpack that. What do you mean by white space, and why should we want more of it?

Juliet: When we go into companies, we usually work mostly with mid-size and larger companies, what we see is people who are drowning in junk – meetings and emails and reports and fire drills. All the stuff that we’ve become very, very acculturated to tolerating, but it’s really wasting our capacity. We teach them to stop doing so much of that. And what this creates is found time. Now, we call that time white space. It is that time that is free, then, for things like strategy and creativity and introspection and thinking and looking at the big picture and looking deeply and all the richer kinds of mental exploration that we never have time to do, because we’re too busy with our CCs. So that is the definition of white space. We think that when talented folks do not have thinking as part of their daily to-do list, that all businesses suffer. Some of them suffer with extraordinary cost that I can unpack for you a little bit in a minute, if you’re interested. It costs in many different areas.

Halelly: Get everybody scared.

Juliet: Some healthy pain.

Halelly: I’m kidding, but it is actually more costly than most of us realize.

Juliet: It is amazing.

Halelly: I think people listening feel the pain. I know, because I talk to people all the time. They feel the pain, but I think everyone feels guilty for feeling this pain, like something is wrong with them and they should just get with the program.

Juliet: There is a very personalized element to the guilt, where we all kind of are feeling like if we just found the right filing system or podcast or tip or tool and suddenly work would just feel effortless. That’s because we undervalue all the cultural elements that are pressing on us, of which we have zero control. It is my job a little bit to create a little bit of pain, because when you look at these companies, anyone on your podcast that is listening is a leader. If they have one direct report, if they have 500 direct reports, they have some power to change the direction of the ship. So getting honest about cost is very, very important. I will unpack that.

One thing we talk about is top line cost. That’s probably not something we’ll dig deeply into here, because that’s more of a kind of c-suite concern, but top line cost, the top line grows when people can come up with certain kinds of ideas. When they don’t have thoughtfulness, those ideas are never heard from. So that is the top line cost. Then there is the human side, which you talk about in your materials, about really understanding the human side of work. This is very obvious, but we’ve learned to ignore it. The health consequences, the wellness consequences, the family consequences, the balance consequences, the not knowing our own kids well consequences of just working this way. But what most companies really get the most shocked by is financial costs. It’s just because nobody is doing this research yet, and I think we are in really, really uncharted territory in terms of taking things like unnecessary emails and meetings and interruptions, taking HR data where we get people’s salary, and we just do the math to see what it costs. What we tend to see is about a million dollars of annual waste for every 50 people in a team.

Halelly: Ouch.

Juliet: So if you start doing some multiplying to your typical mid-size business or enterprise, it’s a crazy amount of money. It’s a crazy, crazy amount of money. If you can’t get a leader to care about this problem, from the human side or from the creativity side, then sometimes you can just get them to sit up [inaudible 00:08:13]. It’s a stupid waste of money.

Halelly: Yes. You say that there are thieves of productivity that tend to be the culprits of this kind of cost. What are they?

Juliet: Yes. So we call the thieves of productivity – there are four things that primarily drive overload, and just so you know where they came from, they came from us researching those cultural elements I talk about, that weigh down upon people and make it not only their fault but they’re so busy. We took the 33 different elements and we cross-referenced them and dissected them and we played with them and we found that there were four main drivers, but that they were surprises, because they were actually assets that ran amuck. They were not negative things. The thieves are drive, excellence, information and activity. And when you think of these four things, you wouldn’t want to work anywhere where people didn’t have drive and a commitment to excellence and a lust for information and the ability to be passionate and moving quickly. But, when they are in the age of overload, where everything is very much about stimulation and little wins and moving fast, they just keep us constantly seduced into this very shallow, constantly moving way of working, and the deep work is harder to get to.

There’s a plant in California called morning glory. I don’t know if everybody has it where they live, but it’s a vine and it grows these really beautiful purple flowers. When I drove by it the first time, I thought, “Oh my God, I’ve got to plant that in the backyard.” So I got a lot of it, and I got too much of it, and I planted it everywhere and it was gorgeous. It was very stunning. But it also has these little curly tendrils that come off of the vine, and what you find out about morning glory in about a month is that it takes over everything. The tendrils wrap around your bicycle and your outdoor faucets and your security gate and everything is taken over. That’s sort of how I think about the thieves. They’re the beautiful, gorgeous, purple, vital, gorgeous flower that we all want of being driven in excellence and informed and active, but easily overgrown and hard to control.

Halelly: That’s a fascinating metaphor. I love it. And then it just chokes whatever it’s wrapped around, right? It kills it?

Juliet: Right.

Halelly: Yeah. We know some people like that too. So, oh my goodness. I want to talk more about them, but I would love for you to share, if you have an example or a story that can help us understand, maybe even just one of these. What’s a great example for one of these thieves, and how it’s something really good except for when it takes over?

Juliet: Sure. It’s interesting. Everybody has a thief that’s usually dominant for them, and some people will find more than one. But for me my thief is excellence. I’m just a raging perfectionist, and so probably good for me to share my own stories and not other people’s, because it’s such an interesting balance of when the thief is good and when the thief is poor. For instance, we were getting ready for a giant global event, and I think I redid our business cards three times in the print run. And then separately, and in parallel, we were tweaking and tweaking a website. We lost one designer, the other one had a loss in the family and they left. We were coming up on the deadline, and in that case of that website, what was really important for me was to ask myself, “Where good enough was good enough? And who would really tell the difference between the level of finesse that I wanted and the level of finesse that anybody cared about,” and make it be good enough.

In the case of the cards, in my knowledge of what makes people notice things, there’s a lot of subconscious in the way that people lean into marketing. Tactile and the feel and the paper and the feel of it. In that instance, I think my excellence or perfectionism was well served to get those cards to a point where they had impact. If I had allowed myself to go all the way down the row that I wanted, in terms of excellence for the site, we would have missed deadlines and more importantly, no one would have noticed, because it really would have been a recreational exercise for me. That’s one of the things is learning to parse out when you’re using your thief for good and when you’re using your thief in a poor way, because it’s very, very hard to tell the difference between. But that’s really the critical line of demarcation. And when you start to be aware of it, what you’ll notice is that there’s a whole subset of the way that you use your own thief or dominant thieves that are just about sort of habit, and recreation.

So, information people who like to binge on scoreboards and spreadsheets and dashboards and reading and internet tabs and tabs and tabs – sometimes, thank God they do that level of research, and sometimes, it’s falling into the realm of that habitual and recreational. That’s the skillset is to start to be able to tell the difference and when to use those precious resources and when to let them go.

Halelly: Is there some kind of a trick to it, or is it just really being aware of yourself and knowing your own line? I mean, is there some way that you teach people to be better at noticing the differentiation?

Juliet: We have four questions that we teach people to use that map to the thieves. I can say them for you, but we’ll also provide a website at the end that has them written down, so people don’t have to be scribbling while we’re talking. We feel that the questions are the filter that helps people slowly learn to make that division. So I’ll tell you what they are, and I’ll tell you which thief they map to. The questions are, “Is there anything I can let go of? Where is good enough good enough? What do I truly need to know? What deserves my attention?” Now, if you’re paying attention you can map some of them yourself.

Drive, that always wants to have more projects and more stuff and more activities and climb the high hill and climb the next hill, they need to hear, “Is there anything I can let go of?” Because they can’t do everything at once that way. Excellence needs to hear, “Where is good enough good enough?” Information needs to hear, “What do I truly need to know?” And then activity, activity, activity needs to hear, “What deserves my attention?” When people use the questions on a regular basis, they slowly start teaching themselves to create this separation. They also can teach each other because we believe very passionately that white space should be explored as a team or as a business unit or an organization, and when you have all this language together, you can say to each other, “I think this is getting, we’re slipping into drive here. We’re letting drive turn into overdrive. We’re slipping from information to information overload here, and we can give each other feedback and we can have dialogue using these terms.” That’s the slow training process that gets people to be better at this.

Halelly: Love it. These are such helpful and simple questions, but I think they will be so meaningful. It makes me wonder, do teams take on a particular culture, a thief that becomes predominant or is it the leader’s main thief that tends to override the others within a team?

Juliet: Yes, that’s a great question. Some teams have a creatively healthy balance of thieves. For instance, my COO is drive and I’m excellence. Drive always wants to go forward, go forward, go forward, and excellence wants to stay and perfect and perfect and perfect. Sometimes they can helpfully balance each other in a positive context. But, often they just feed upon each other, and so there tends to be a very fear-based mimicking of whatever thieves are being worshiped above you. So if the CEO is a fanatic for excellence, then everybody becomes a perfectionist. And if the CEO is a fanatic for information, then everybody becomes a researcher, etc., etc. There is a really powerful trickling down.

All of the stuff we talk about today, and all the stuff we teach in training at White Space is super cultural. It’s unlike other kinds of training where – we talked about this just before – if you took sales training or negotiation skills or a lot of those things, you could just go by yourself in your little line of business, your little niche with your customers, and you could do it. But in white space, there’s a very strong feeling of culture and team, both in what the problem looks like and in what solving it looks like.

Halelly: That’s really interesting. So, listeners are leaders, or preparing for leadership. What is something that they can, or how do you suggest that they get started to create more white space for themselves, as leaders? And of course as you just mentioned, for their teams and for their organization? What is something they can do?

Juliet: Great. I’m going to give you three somethings, kind of in a building order that I’d like you to consider them. The first one is we say before you do anything, be Jane Goodall. Which means just to take a period of time to observe what is actually true now, in your team, before you dive into changing it? Because sometimes people get excited or they’ll listen to a podcast or go on our website and say, “Okay, we need to start cutting meetings and doing email etiquette classes and making time to think.” They’re diving into activity too fast, and there hasn’t been thoughtfulness. Just like the problem that we described. That idea of first be an anthropologist, just be a curious and neutral observer – what is the team like? How do they work? Whose got what thieves? What’s driving you? Do you work evenings and weekends? Does everybody check email after 8:00 at night? What is real for you? Before you start changing.

The next thing we love for leaders to do is make a vulnerable admission of some kind. Honestly, this should not be hard for anybody to do in terms of thinking of one, it just might be challenging in terms of your public face to share it. But we all, as leaders, myself included, have places where we violate other people’s white space, or where we are complicit in the problem. I’m a terrible interrupter, as example. I just move so fast that I’m holding my lips closed on a conference call, trying not to interrupt a major client, because it’s such a strong, powerful blind spot, or habit for me. Everybody has one. Everybody has stuff like this. So when you go to your team and say, “Listen, I discovered this white space thing, and here’s what I learned. I’m part of the problem. And let me tell you first before we decide if we want to do anything together about this. Let me tell you, I send a lot of emails on Sunday and you have no idea if you’re supposed to answer them or not, and I’m sorry for that and I want you to realize that I’m taking a look at that.” So when you make whatever it is, that vulnerable admission for you, something that’s real, some kind of magical shifting starts happening, where people are then more willing and able to talk about what’s real for them. Because they’ve heard you be so surprisingly open.

The third thing is based on some research from some friends of ours at a leadership event called the Global Leadership Summit. It’s the largest leadership event in the world. It streams to over 300 or 400,000 people. They found and did research of people following the exposure to their ideas at their event, and they found that they had 154-percent increase in key outcomes when they took a learning action upon arriving home. Not just heard about it, not just thought about it, but took a learning action. What we’ve done is we’ve designed a learning action that your listeners can take with their team. It is a three-part module from our digital learning system that we let them use, at no cost, and we suggest that they take one lesson each week, for three weeks, and they do it with their team together. They sit down, they watch a video, they do a little activity. 13 minutes a week, not a big commitment, and then they talk about how that was. Then on the fourth week they meet to discuss application ideas. One of the nice things about this for you guys is going to be if you like what we’re talking about, it’s hard to go home and say, hard to play telephone. Go back to your team and go, “Let me tell you about this thing that I heard on this podcast,” but if you have a digital little module that you can just show them, then it becomes incredibly easier. So we have that for them, and it covers some kind of basic white space topics, and they can access that at whitespacetrial.com. That’s also where, I mentioned we have the questions posted and thieves of productivity, whitespacetrial.com.

Halelly: That’s really cool, and thank you for making that available. It sounds like such a practical way for people to think further about this topic, but I love that you are empowering leaders to be able to have the tools they need. Because you’re right, so often you feel like, “Let me just play this podcast for you so you can hear how this person described it,” because it’s like you said, broken telephone. You just aren’t doing it the same way.

Juliet: And you could certainly do that too, but what happens, here’s what’s going to happen. I don’t know how many leaders we have listening, but let’s say there’s 100. Many of those people will go, “Yes, this is such a problem for my people!” And then somewhere in between the moment the podcast ends and the next business day, they’re sucked back into the busyness, and it all just sort of fades. So you really need something very, very tangible to start creating dialogue about this. Because we’re all too busy to become less busy. It’s really challenging to start. So this gives you something super, super concrete, like holding a glass in your hand. I’m holding a fitting, I have something, I can put it on the desk and show it to everybody. For those of you out there who do feel this is a problem that might be sacrificing creativity or engagement or something in your team, I really want to caution you against that getting sucked back in. Because you’ll wake up three weeks from now and go, “I was going to do something about that white space thing,” and that’s super typical. We watch it happen over and over and over. So if that happens to you, you’re not alone, but maybe being cautioned against it will help.

Halelly: The three things you said – the first one was be an anthropologist, and the second one was –

Juliet: The second one is make a vulnerable admission. Say something about yourself where you’re part of the problem, so that they know … the reason for that is they need to know you’re also introspecting. That you’re not just finding the next thing that would be good for them to do, but that you’re also doing it yourself.

Halelly: And the human need, we’re hard-wired for reciprocity, so if you show vulnerability, you actually trigger in the other person almost subconsciously you trigger in them a need to be vulnerable back. And then the third one is doing the free trial.

Juliet: The trial.

Halelly: Great. So I want to ask you one more thing before we start to wrap up. You said white space is a place to be, just to be in thought and to be creative and to be reflective and not to be busy. Is there a recommended amount of time or is there sort of a recipe for what right looks like?

Juliet: It’s always interesting to me who asks that question, because a lot of people do. They tend to be very specific folks who like that. There is no formula. Some people like to take time to white space. It helps them if they set a timer. Some people like to have a natural flow to it. Let me break down a couple of the traditional ways of using the time, so you know.

First of all, there are two ways you can use a moment of white space. To be recuperative, or to be constructive. The recuperative is when you just need to go, “Ah. I’m just … ah.” You need to reboot. And the constructive side is that purposeful time set aside to think or ponder or look into something strategic or creative. Both are important. A lot of people will think they’re deferring a little more, in their heads, they think of it first as the recuperative side, but that’s really only a small part of it.

The other thing is, you don’t need long stretches of time. If you’re planning the strategy for your company, I’m hoping you have a half an hour or 45 minutes of white space. But most applications are just five seconds here, one minute there, 30 seconds here. It’s just about opening up the way the day feels, with these little insertions of pause, that make so much of the difference. Actually, the name white space came from imagining looking at the pages on a calendar. You know this feeling when something is cancelled and you delete them off your Outlook and you look and go, “Oh, it’s so white! So ah!” And you can just breathe and all sorts of things feel possible. That literal white space on your calendar is part of where we’re heading. So there are a lot of different ways to do it.

There are many, many days where I’ll take five cumulative minutes of white space, but it’s enough. Because maybe it was 10 30-second breaks, or maybe it was five one-minute moments where I stopped, or maybe it was one five-minute jump where I really pulled back and thought about my day and that was sufficient.

Halelly: When you’re in the white space – again, this is probably a question of the type of person you just said would ask this, and I’m doing it.

Juliet: You like direction.

Halelly: I do. And for my friends that do also, I hear you say that sometimes it’s just sort of letting go, sometimes it’s just breathing, sometimes it’s just reflection. Do you also suggest doing something during that time? Or do you sort of sit there and let the time pass, or do you journal or what do you do?

Juliet: You could journal. I mean, the whole point of white space is to have a strategic, we call it the strategic pause taken between activities. So, it is a pause. It’s actually the abstaining from doing during that period of time, so that you can move up into thinking. And so if you have a legal pad and ideas come out, or if you’re walking and need to jot notes down or if you need to take notes in your phone, that’s a completely typical outpouring of the kind of ideas and thoughts that probably never have time to be heard, because you’re busy all the time. But if you do something during your white space, you would technically not be doing white space.

Halelly: Got it. Well, Juliet, it’s been fun. We’ve got to start wrapping up, and before we let people know exactly how they can get in touch and learn more from you, and also make sure that they have at least one specific action – although you’ve given many specific actions they can take – what’s new and exciting for you? What’s on your horizon that’s got you energized these days?

Juliet: My family and I are going to live in Spain for six weeks, in the beginning of the year. And we are taking some of our own. We were talking before about sabbaticals, and we’re taking some of our own dedication to extreme white space, and picking up everything. I have a little work in Germany in February, so the month of January is going to be just, I don’t know what, flamenco lessons or guitar or something! And then I’ll do a little work in Germany and we’ll come home mid-February. I’m looking at little white villages to decide where we’re going to go and learn a little bit more about the Madrid market. We have some clients there that want to learn a little bit about white space, and that’s our plan.

Halelly: Wow, that’s so exciting. I’m jealous and happy for you!

Juliet: It was motivated by our dear friend David Covey. I was starting to tell you, who took his family on these wonderful what we would call deep white space sabbaticals, where he completely stepped back from his life so he could turn around and look back at it and be a bigger fan of that.

Halelly: Oh my gosh, I definitely want to hear about it afterwards, so we’ll have to stay in touch. So what’s the one specific action that people can take today, or tomorrow, to start taking action toward making more white space in their world?

Juliet: Okay, so here’s what I would love for them to do is prep and email now to your core team. Whoever it is that you work with, and tell them that you would like to expose them to this content once a week for a very short period of time, and have them sign up on the trial page. Then you can start doing it together one week from today. That’s whitespacetrial.com, and we can send it. I’m sure you can post it in the show notes or something like that.

Halelly: Exactly. I’ll link to it in the show notes. Cool. I hope people will do it. That sounds fun. How can people stay in touch, learn more about you? I don’t know if you hang out on social media at all?

Juliet: I’m on Twitter once a day, just a little sip a day, like we like to do social media at White Space. But you can find us at WhiteSpaceAtWork.com, which is where you can learn about everything we’re up to.

Halelly: Well, it’s been fun talking with you. I find you very inspirational and I hope everyone listening takes action, as Juliet says. It’s good to learn and it’s nice to have insights, but without action, it’s probably not that meaningful. Thank you for sharing your insights with us, and I look forward to everyone continuing to learn from you as well, Juliet.

Juliet: Thanks honey, so much.

Halelly: Wow, wow, so practical and enlightening, right? TalentGrowers, I would love to hear from you. What’s your biggest takeaway from this episode? More importantly, what do you plan to do about it? How do you plan to enact your lessons learned? Go over to the comments section, below the show notes, over at TalentGrow.com/podcast/episode70. That’s also where you’ll find the links that Juliet mentioned, and let me know in the comments. What’s your biggest takeaway and what do you plan to do about it? Or, you can also comment over on our Facebook page. It’s TalentGrow Show on Facebook, or our listener group on Facebook. It’s called the TalentGrowers Community. If you search it, you just ask to join and as a listener of the show you are free to be part of the community. So come on over. Let’s get a conversation going.

That’s it for this episode. I’m Halelly Azulay, your leadership development strategist. Thank you for listening. I appreciate you. And until the next time, make today great.

Announcer: Thanks for listening to the TalentGrow Show, where we help you develop your talent to become the kind of leader that people want to follow. For more information, visit TalentGrow.com.

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