194: How to Deal with Difficult People and Difficult Times with Mark Goulston
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We all know at least one person who knows just how to push our buttons. Staying poised and not ‘losing it’ in the face of difficult people -- and difficult times -- is an especially important skill for leaders to cultivate. On this episode of The TalentGrow Show, I chat with author and former FBI and police hostage negotiation trainer Dr. Mark Goulston about how to improve your outcomes dealing with difficult people and what it takes to be a strong leader during difficult times. Mark shares a dramatic courthouse story from when he served as an advisor to the prosecution on the O.J. Simpson trial, and draws valuable lessons from it that you can take with you to the workplace. Plus, discover the one thing people look for from leaders during times of crisis or uncertainty. Tune in and be sure to share this episode with others!
ABOUT DR. MARK GOULSTON:
Dr. Mark Goulston is a special advisor to founders, entrepreneurs and CEOs on all psychological matters related to their success and well being. His current focus is helping these leaders as well as their teams to better deal with uncertainty in the workplace. He is one of the foremost thought leaders on empathic communication with his book, "Just Listen," becoming the top book on listening in the world. He is also the host of the critically acclaimed podcast, My Wakeup Call, where he conversationally speaks to influencers like Larry King, Norman Lear, Garry Ridge, Tim Brown, Esther Wojcicki about what matters most to them and the wakeup calls that led to that. He has also co-founded the global movement #WMYST (What made you smile today?) whose mission is making the world happier, one smile at a time.
WHAT YOU’LL LEARN:
What can you do to effectively improve your outcomes dealing with difficult people in the workplace? Mark shares the story of when he worked on the O.J. Simpson trial to make a thought-provoking point (5:33)
Mark discusses making people feel felt, not just understood, with another example from the trial (10:43)
Mark summarizes the key takeaways from his story, and breaks them down into actionable advice on how to deal with difficult people (17:16)
How to stay calm and centered when someone is trying to trigger you (18:13)
Halelly and Mark dive into the idea of ‘just listening,’ why it’s so challenging, and what you can do to cultivate listening as a leadership skill (19:40)
What do people need from leaders during difficult times? Mark connects his answer to the COVID-19 pandemic response and our current education system (23:37)
What’s new and exciting on Mark’s horizon? (25:50)
One specific action you can take to upgrade your leadership skills (26:45)
RESOURCES:
Get Mark’s latest book, Talking to Crazy
Check out Mark’s podcast My Wakeup Call
Check out Mark’s website
Episode 194 Mark Goulston
SOUNDBITE: What they’re going to do is they’re going to escalate and they’re going to frustrate anger, but if they can get you so enraged, you’re going to use your effort to keep a lid on it. Because if you’re uncomfortable with being enraged, your tendency is going to want to strike out at them verbally and say something mean and cruel and you’re not a mean and cruel person.
Welcome to the TalentGrow Show, where you can get actionable results-oriented insight and advice on how to take your leadership, communication and people skills to the next level and become the kind of leader people want to follow. And now, your host and leadership development strategist, Halelly Azulay.
Hey there TalentGrowers. Welcome back to the TalentGrow Show. I’m Halelly Azulay, your leadership development strategist here at TalentGrow, the company that I founded back in 2006 to develop leaders that people actually want to follow. We do that by consulting to organizations that want to develop their leaders with a more strategic approach. We help them build out that leadership development strategy and program as well as we consult to companies on specific leadership skills with our workshops and retreats, and I speak at conferences and meetings to support that effort. Today on the TalentGrow Show we have Dr. Mark Goulston who is going to entertain you with stories and actionable ideas to help you communicate with people who drive you crazy at work. There are some people that get us all triggered up and Mark knows a lot about that. He shares a fascinating story that then has lots of actionable and useful information that you can take away from it, and we talk about the idea of how to talk to crazy and also how to listen better as a leader. I think that you’re going to enjoy this episode and I’d love to hear what you thought about it afterward. Without further ado, let’s listen to my conversation with Dr. Mark Goulston.
Let’s Dig In…
TalentGrowers, welcome back. I am so excited to welcome Dr. Mark Goulston to the show. He is a special advisor to founders, entrepreneurs and CEOs on all psychological matters related to their success and well-being. His current focus is on helping these leaders as well as their teams to better deal with uncertainty in the workplace. Boy do we have uncertainty in today’s workplace. He’s one of the foremost thought leaders on empathic communication with his book Just Listen becoming the top book on listening in the world. He’s also the host of the critically acclaimed podcast My Wakeup Call, where he conversationally speaks to influencers like Larry King, Norman Leer and Garry Ridge about what matters most to them and the wakeup calls that lead to that. He has also co-founded the global movement #wmyst which stands for What Made You Smile Today, whose mission is making the world happier one smile at a time and I am smiling at you Mark. Welcome to the TalentGrow Show.
Thank you for having me on!
I’m really glad that you’ve come on. I think your insights are going to be super interesting to the TalentGrowers. Before we start, I always ask my guests to tell us about their professional journey really briefly. Where did you start and how did you end up where you are today?
I started off as a clinically trained psychiatrist and I’ve been blessed with having seven mentors. They’ve all passed away – that’s not such a blessing – and I can’t stress enough the importance of mentors in your life. I’ll tell you, here’s the difference between a mentor and a coach. A coach focuses kind of on your performance. A mentor helps you land in your future. They often help you distill what that future could be. So what happened is one of my early mentors was actually the person who started the whole suicide prevention movement, a fellow named Dr. Ed Shneidman at UCLA, and he referred me suicidal patients. I was focused on that for 25 years and none of them killed themselves and we can talk about why that might have been, what I’ve discovered. But then that crossed over and I did FBI and police hostage negotiation training and then after that, I had always worked with intervening with conflicted families and then I realized that a lot of businesses are like conflicted families, whether they’re your family or not. So that led me into being able to intervene and basically help companies. Now it’s evolved into helping anyone, leaders, with their non-technical skills. One of my friends Marshall Goldsmith wrote his best-known book, What Got You Here Won’t Get You There. It’s a great read even though it’s many years old and he’s had newer books that are great. Basically what he said was, your technical competence will get you to a certain point, but the bottleneck is having to succeed through people. And if you turn people off, if you are not the best leader, you’re going to lose your talent and talent is too important to take the chance of losing them. So I help leaders and managers make sure they don’t do that.
And our work is extremely well aligned because that’s part of my goal, is to help leaders become the kind of leader that people want to follow. Those people leadership skills, rather than the technical skills, are usually what makes or breaks that deal. So, I wanted to start with your most provocatively titled book which is titled Talking to Crazy, how to deal with the irrational and impossible people in your life. A lot of us feel that at work, some people are just very hard to manage or to follow or to work alongside of, so I’d love for you to give us the high-level view of what TalentGrowers can do to effectively improve their outcomes with people that feel that way to them.
Well, I’ve got to tell a good story, because people like stories. There was one day – and here’s how I tee it up when I give talks – I say, “Do you remember where you were on September 5, 1995?” And people look at me like, no. And I’ll say, “Let me refresh your memory.” If you’re younger than this you’ll say you still don’t remember. But there was a trial that some people had heard of called the OJ Simpson trial, and on September 5, 1995, there was a character in the OJ Simpson trial named Detective Mark Fuhrman. And I think people are familiar with it because they’ve had miniseries and movies based on it, and on September 5, this Detective Mark Fuhrman, who was this cop accused of being racist and planting a glove and whatnot, everybody in the world watched him testify in the courtroom. Everybody saw it. Everybody except me, because I was sequestered in the top floor of the criminal courts building because F. Lee Bailey had accused me of drugging, coaching Detective Mark Fuhrman. I was an advisor to the prosecution. Earlier in the trial, F. Lee Bailey had promised the world that he would break this cop and he didn’t broke this cop. What broke this cop was, people familiar with the trial know, what broke this cop was that there were certain tapes that came out where this cop had said the N word. During the cross-exam, he denied doing that. There I am in the criminal courts building. I didn’t know he was going to take the Fifth Amendment and I’m going a little bit wacky in my head. My mind went to, “I’m being set up! What’s going on here?” Because your mind does crazy things.
I’m bringing this up because on that day, 80 percent of what I know about dealing with difficult people I learned in that day. And so at 7 p.m., in walks F. Lee Bailey, who was a lawyer. Johnnie Cochran had an associate named Carl Douglas. They walk in and one of the prosecutors, Bill Hodgeman, who got sick and was replaced by another prosecutor, Christopher Darden, come in, and I didn’t know that he’d taken the Fifth Amendment. I’m not even sure why I was being questioned, but F. Lee Bailey wanted to see if I had medicated him or coached him or drugged him or done anything, which is what he had accused me of doing during the cross-examination and I got subpoenaed during the cross-exam earlier in the trial. The building I was in conveniently fell down in the earthquake and no one could find me because the building disappeared! So the subpoena never found me.
There I am and what I figured out – here’s the point of this story – is I figure out that one of the ways difficult people get to all of us, and these are the venters, the screamers, the whiners, the people that at sullen. You have some of them in your life. Some of you listening in are one of those people. Anyway, the way difficult people get to us is, and I knew F. Lee Bailey would do this, I knew he would charm me, he’d frustrate me, he’d anger me, and then he’d push me into my rage. And if he pushed me into my rage, something I wasn’t comfortable with, I’d go off-balance and then he’d attack. Not to get into politics, but you actually saw President Trump do this when he did in 2016 with all of the other candidates. He pushed them all into their rage and they didn’t know what to do. So difficult people do that with us. They outrage us, and here’s the key if you’re listening in – identify those people ahead of time. You can do that by just listing, all the people by writing their name you get a pit in your stomach or you get a tightness in your throat. Those are usually the people that cause you problems. Never expect them not to act up when they want you to do something you don’t want to do or when they want to get out of doing something they don’t want to do.
So can you picture this in your mind’s eye?
Yes, so don’t expect that from them, because they’re going to do exactly what they always do, right?
That’s exactly it. What they’re going to do is escalate and they’re going to frustrate, anger, but if they can get you so enraged, you’re going to use your effort to keep a lid on it. If you’re uncomfortable with being enraged, your tendency is going to want to strike out at them verbally, and say something mean and cruel, and you’re not a mean and cruel person.
I knew F. Lee Bailey would do this. So as he comes in, and I have this way which listeners won’t get, but I have a way of looking into people’s eyes intently, so when I was a suicide prevention specialist, I had a way of looking into the eyes of people who were feeling suicidal and I had a way of looking into their eyes, looking for their hopelessness. It came from a good place, because when they saw that I saw their hopelessness, and I wasn’t trying to give them advice or solutions, people start to cry when they feel felt. My book Just Listen is about how do you cause people to feel felt? Not just understood. That’s why I think it did so well. And so I looked into F. Lee Bailey’s eyes and I held onto his eyes and here’s a good takeaway: some of you may know what the term innuendo is, so the way an innuendo is used to get the better of us is innuendo is meant to provoke us until someone can take advantage of us. What F. Lee Bailey said, as he sat across from me, was, “Dr. Goulston, we don’t really know what you do here. We know you’ve been in the trial since the beginning, intermittently, and we’re here to ask you some questions about your connection, your relationship to Detective Mark, Fuhrman.” He’s not asking me any questions. And if you can imagine, I’m looking into his eyes and normally when someone uses innuendo like that and they say something, you go, “Uh huh,” and they’re pulling you in, literally. Putting a hook in your neck and pulling you in. Instead of going, “Uh huh,” I blink my eyes every time he said that. When he said, “We understand you’re here in the trial,” normally you’d go, “Uh huh,” but instead I just kept looking at him and I blinked my eyes. And I did this for about four or five minutes and Bill Hodgeman the prosecutor looks at me and says, “Mark, you haven’t said anything.” F. Lee Bailey didn’t know what to make of me and I looked at Bill and said, “He hasn’t asked me a question.” So I look back at F. Lee Bailey and he flinched a little bit because I think what he realized is there might be something more to me than the conversation was like. Then I just kept looking into his eyes and my look was, “I’m onto you.” That’s what my look said. Literally in my mind, I was thinking, “I’m not perfect, but I’m not hiding a murderer. What’s your story?” I kept looking into his eyes with it. He starts picking up speed and he escalates and then he reaches that point where he says, “So you are here to say that you never medicated, you never coached, you never influenced the testimony of Detective Mark Fuhrman?” So he’s escalating like that.
Building the drama here – I hope I’ve drawn you in! He says that, the equivalent of what happened in earlier in the trial with Detective Fuhrman where he said, “So you never said the N word?” That’s a famous line. That’s how difficult people work, they provoke you. When he said that, I think he said, “So you’re here to say that you didn’t do any of that stuff?” I looked into his eyes, I count to seven, I pause, and everyone in the room is looking at me so I cough, like the EF Hutton commercial, and everyone leans in and I think, “This is working well!” So I count to seven again, and then in a very calm way – by the way, I’ve never taken my eyes off of his eyes – and I said in a very calm way, “Mr. Bailey, my mind wandered the last five minutes. Can you repeat everything you said? Because I think it was important.” That’s what everyone does when I tell this story, they laugh! I said, “My car is parked and I think they locked the parking lot. It’s past 7:00 and I don’t know how I’m going to get my car out, but it did seem important what you’re saying, so could you run it by me again, those last five minutes?”
Your turn to enrage him!
Oh, I’ll tell you. See, difficult people don’t have substance. If people have substance, they lay out their case and make their case. So he looked at Carl Douglas with a look that said, “What did I say?” Because he was there to provoke. He wasn't there to lay out the case. You could feel the whole room shift. It was like David and Goliath. After a few minutes he looks at me and then he looks at Bill Hodgeman and he says, “I don’t think we need to call Dr. Goulston on the stand,” because it was a moot point. They didn’t even need to meet with me because Detective Fuhrman had taken the Fifth Amendment. So we’re packing up to leave and F. Lee Bailey is leaving the room and I said, “Mr. Bailey, I have a question for you.” This is drama. And Bill Hodgeman says to me, “Mark, it’s the end of the trial. Forget about it.” I said, “Bill, I think I have it handled.” He looks at me and I said, “Mr. Bailey, earlier in the trial there was this awful N word that was brought up. And what Christopher Dardin said was once people say the N word, you can’t un-ring a bell.” These are famous lines from the trial, you may remember them. He looks at me like, “Yeah, so?” And I said, “Yesterday, in front of the world, you associated me with Detective Mark Fuhrman who is seen now as this incredibly racist cop, and so you slurred me. Do you have any idea how we can unslur a slur?” He looks at me, he looks at Bill Hodgeman with a look that says, “Who is your little friend?” and then Bill says, “Mark, it’s okay. They misspelled your name. Don’t worry about it.” I shrugged my shoulders and F. Lee Bailey leaves the room. I’m gathering my pen and pencil together and he comes back in and he looks at me and says, “I will trade you a retraction in tomorrow’s newspaper if you tell me what you figured out about me.” And then I just chuckled and I said it was okay.
I think that’s a good story. I’m glad you allowed me to tell it.
Thank you for telling it.
It outlines what these people do. People who are hiding something, and usually what they’re hiding is they haven’t done something, they’re incompetent and if they can provoke you enough to be angry, and you don’t keep your cool, rather than say something mean at them, if you’re uncomfortable with, you’ll say, “Just take care of it. We’ll deal with it next week,” because the next thing you wanted to say in this day and age could have gotten you in trouble if you’re a superior because they could have found some lawyer and said it was harassment. So how do you deal with this? Make a list of all of the people in your life that put that knot in your stomach. Never expect them not to act that way, and always hold a little bit of yourself back when you’re talking to them. If it’s a good conversation, that’s good. But if they do do something to provoke you, you can just sort of be like the cat who swallowed the canary. Don’t smile, you’ll provoke them, but you can say to yourself, ”Dang, there it is.” There’s a number of things you can do. My favorite, but it’s very wordy, is what I said to F. Lee Bailey – “Could you mind saying that again?” There are other things you could say to them, such as, “Could you run that by me kind of in a normal voice? Because the voice you use kind of got me all jazzed up and I didn’t listen to well.”
Is that going to provoke them to become angrier do you think?
The point is, you’re so calm. You watch them, but because they haven’t provoked you, you’re actually having fun being able to stay centered.
How do you stay centered? Let’s just break it down to that. Because I think for some people, I imagine it takes practice. But for many people, that’s really the hard part. Those other people do succeed in putting them off balance and controlling your emotions when someone triggers you into those strong emotions is not that easy. It’s something that I try to help people do, but it sounds like you have some ideas that can be really helpful here?
There’s a book that I’m not going to write, but if anyone is listening in, you could write this book. This will be a best seller. I’m not going to write it. The book would be called 101 Opportunities for Poise. Because poise is sadly lacking in the world, and when people demonstrate poise … sadly I’m a big fan of female leaders like Angela Merkel, Jacinda Ardern from New Zealand. They have a lot of poise. They have the great combination of being unflappable but emotionally present. If you’re listening in, by the way when I coach people, that’s the main thing. I say, “I’m here to help you grow into being unflappable but emotionally present.” You can be unflappable but you can come off like a robot. And you can cultivate that.
One of the things in the people I coach is, when you get triggered, say to yourself, “Opportunity for poise!” And then remember this – poise begins with a pause. So just pausing can cause the other person, like with F. Lee Bailey, to get a sense that their best shot, you didn’t even flinch.
That’s great. You mentioned your book Just Listen. I was listening to you on the Harvard Business Review ideacast podcast. They say it’s their number one most popular episode so that’s amazing, because they really do have a lot of listeners and a lot of really great episodes. This idea of your book Just Listen, why is listening so challenging for so many people and what are a couple of – we don’t have a lot of time left – but what are a couple of super actionable things that leaders can use now to become better listeners?
I’m going to give you a tip which would be the book that would follow it, which I’m not going to write. Here’s my latest thinking, but if you like this, you’ll like Just Listen. And I launched the international premiere of this. I spoke in Moscow to 1,000 Russians along with a fellow named Daniel Kahneman. He won the Nobel Prize, he wrote Thinking Fast and Slow, and so I was one of the headliners there. I introduced this and actually there are some videos of me on You Tube doing this, and what I said to the audience, “If you’re listening in, this will change everything in your life. If I focus on what people, and if you focus on what people are listening to, you’ll give them transactional answers.” I said to the Russian audience, “If I focus on what you’re listening to, I’ll give you some bullet points, you’ll write them down. If I’m engaging, you listen to me for maybe an hour. And then you’ll follow the bullet points, some will work and some won’t, and you’ll give me your mind for an hour.” Then I switched to my NPR voice and said, “But if I focus on what you’re listening for, and I identify accurately and I deliver on it, you will give me everything.” So whoever you’re with, if you can focus on what they’re listening for, they’ll lean in. And we’re going to end because I’m going to give you a taste of it.
I think what you’re listening for, and tell me what this feels like – what you’re listening for is something that gives your listeners immediate, useable, counter-intuitive value that they never would have thought of that they could apply to their lives right now. And make them more successful and they can use it and they can tell other people, “You’ve got to check out this podcast.” So you’re listening for someone who can give that kind of information because the trust of your listeners matters to you.
That’s true.
It matters more than if you grow the podcasts or not. You take other people’s trust very seriously and you want to give them something immediately useable and valuable. What you’re also listening for is the expert who has the bestselling book, who is so convoluted and boring that you have to say to them, “I’m sorry, we can’t post the interview,” because you have to protect your audience from those people. Any of that true?
This is true.
See how this works if you’re listening in? The reason she laughed is because it was true and I got where she was coming from without her telling me and she chuckled because it was true. And you don’t have to be a rocket scientist. I’ll tell you what your people are listening for, and I’m writing a book on leading through crisis and difficult times and uncertainty, and maybe we’ll end with this because I want to give you something that will hopefully inspire you. What your people are listening for is can you enable them to feel trust, confidence and hope? During uncertain times they want to feel trust, confidence and hope. I’ll give you a teaser of how you do that but you have to wait for the book to come out on leading through difficult times. You develop trust by being totally transparent, candid and factual. You may have to deliver bad news like Dr. Fauci, but you deliver everything you know without spinning it and so people trust that you’re not lying to them. You cause people to have confidence because you come up with a process that’s like Lego blocks. What people are thinking after you say that about what happened, they’re thinking, “What does it mean and what do we need to do?” You develop confidence by giving them a process that they can follow. Wash your hands. Social distance. Wear a mask. People develop confidence when they see a way through it. People develop hope when you can point to a place beyond now and it’s so crystal clear and irresistible that people align and say, “Yeah, I want to make that happen.”
It sounds like give people hope by helping. This is where a leader needs to be a visionary and to be able to have a vision of the future and kind of a why that they can articulate to the people that they’re trying to inspire and motivate.
Absolutely. Come up with the why that people would feel proud to be part of. I remember, a lot has been written about the Apollo space mission because you got a lot of these uncooperative aerospace engineers cooperating and the reason they did that was because they were going to send a rocket to the moon. They knew they were on a journey that was like science fiction and they would be able to tell their grandchildren, “I helped put people on the moon.” So when you can have a mission like that – now it doesn’t have to be that grand – but when you can design something that causes people to be proud, they want to cooperate.
And then they feel committed. It’s the difference between commitment and compliance, which is something I discussed before. Cool. Well, Mark, I wish we could talk for longer, but we’re quickly running out of time for my 30-minute episode, so I always ask my guests a couple of questions at the end. What’s new and exciting for you on your horizon? Sounds like books are in the cooking?
Yes, I have two books coming from Harper Collins. One is about, I can tell you the subtitle, one is about helping health care heroes recover from Covid-19 PTSD. So we’ll come up with something that will help people not just recover but heal from it, so we’re excited about it. The other one is about how to lead from crisis to growth. Because a lot of people are disconnected. There is a way, actually, while you’re leading through crisis to turn it in such a way that it seamlessly crosses over into growth and success, not just survival.
That sounds exciting indeed, because it sounds like people are hungry for that kind of information and it will be very helpful. What’s one specific action that listeners can take today, tomorrow, this week, that can help them upgrade their own leadership skills from whatever angle you want to take this?
What I’d like you to try, once a day, until you see how it pays off – when you’re in an important conversation, just pause and just be curious about what they’re listening for. You might be able to guess it, because a lot of times it’s not rocket science. They want to get better results, they want to be able to do it in a way that’s doable by them, but just being curious about what they’re listening for, see how it changes the conversation. What’ll happen is the other person is going to be intrigued. They’re going to say, “What’s the matter? You’re kind of quiet.” You can say, “I was trying to figure what you were listening for to get out of this conversation, and I can guess what that is, but why don’t you tell me?” And then when they tell you, the more that you can help make it happen, the more they’re going to want more from you.
Sounds good and makes sense. Mark, thank you so much for stopping by the TalentGrow Show. I think people are going to want to learn more from you and about you. What are some of the best places to follow you online and on social media?
On MarkGoulston.com, I currently have a case of blog-arrhea. I’m just blogging like a madman. You can find things there. I have a podcast, My Wakeup Call, and I’m posting three a week because I’m just doing too many interviews with people like Larry King, Norman Leer, Ken Blanchard, Father Greg Boyle from Homeboy Industries and so you might like those. And I have 520,000 Twitter followers and a bunch of LinkedIn people. I’m a Baby Boomer, so I don’t know what the heck to do with any of this stuff.
Whatever you’re doing it’s working, so good for you. On Twitter, what is your handle?
It’s @MarkGoulston.
All right. We’ll link to that in the show notes along with everything we’ve discussed, and thanks so much. I appreciate you sharing some of your insights on the TalentGrow Show Mark.
And check me out on Instagram because I do 10,000 steps a day and I do these walkabout tips, so there are these little videos where I think about a challenge that I’ve heard and so if you go to MarkGoulston on Instagram, I’m listing to them, little two to four minute tips – how to get a raise, how to deal with difficult people, how to get through to your teenager who is depressed and suicidal. I do that while I go for a walk.
I like that. Very clever way to multitask. You’re getting value and giving value at the same time and building your influence. Smart! I like it. I’m going to check it out. Thank you so much!
Thank you for having me.
OUTRO Okay TalentGrowers. That’s it for another episode. I hope that you enjoyed it. I hope that you got lots of value. It’s intriguing and fascinating to me to listen to Mark and all of his insights and stories, and I think that we can all learn a lot from what he has shared that we can use in our workplace, but I want to know, what did you do differently as a result of listening to this episode or what a-ha did you take away from it or what surprised you about it or what do you want to add to it or maybe you disagree and have some kind of a counter message to provide? Whatever it is, I’d love to hear from you. One of the best ways to stay in touch with me is to sign up for my bi-weekly newsletter which I send out to all of those who stay in touch with me so that they never miss an episode. And I also use that as an opportunity to share other learning opportunities and quick tips. If you would like that, on TalentGrow.com, on the podcast page, you can download my free guide, 10 Mistakes that Leaders Make and How to Avoid Them, and then you will also be receiving my regular newsletter which is short and informal and I think very valuable. I think, I hope it is! So thanks for listening. I really appreciate your time today. I hope that you got lots of value. TalentGrowers, this is the TalentGrow Show. I’m Halelly Azulay, your leadership development strategist here at TalentGrow and until the next time, make today great.
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Intro/outro music: "Why-Y" by Esta
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